And the only thing Mr. Buttliere is doing is asking them to change their policy through a petition. They can still decline to change no matter how many people sign. You have here a member of the organization who doesn't like something about it and is asking them to take a look it at based on a public opinion. That's what a petition does.

How one-dimensional of you, Sophie. Not only is it a legal issue, but it is also a moral and ethical issue and it is also an issue of public policy. Why should our schools be allowed to host an organizations whose membership policy isn't congruent with our schools' admissions policies, that teaches values that are completely opposite the inclusive values our schools teach and that openly discriminates against the very people who are paying taxes to keep their doors open?

I applaud your efforts to bring more awareness to this issue, Rocco. More people need to question the status quo and realize that the BSA isn't all that it reports to be. Their antiquated policy will be their own demise.

Liana, you are imposing YOUR opinion of what is moral and ethical.

Personally, i'm not in favor of teaching sex education to 5 year old children or invoking sexual preference into an organization that previously had nothing to do with being 'straight' or 'gay'.

Dan,
How can you argue the scouts themselves are injecting sexual orientation into the debate when the BSA expressly forbids gay scouts. Seems thats where the issue comes up.

They picked the entertainment and agreed to a contract. I doubt is a group just says we will show up and play for you

How many gay children who are probably 6 years old are denied membership based on the fact that they are gay? I would think 6 years old is kind of young to understand one's being gay. This whole thing sounds like a non-issue to me.

to McCloud's point, and not to take anything away from Rocco, who has every right to pursue this petition movement and is well spoken...my biggest gripe about this entire saga with the BSA and gays is that we are introducing the issue of sexual preference into an organization that had zero to do with sex.

Now the Chicago Pubic Schools are suggesting we teach sex education to 5 year olds. Why? We know why. An indoctrination into liberalism. I haven't read anything to this effect, but i'm willing to bet that it won't just be about reproductive organs, sperm and eggs, etc.. they will be talking about sexual preferences. They will have men with men and women with women.

Dan, that's actually the correlary of the point. Sexuality nor sexual preference is part of what the boy scouts are about, so why exclude someone from boy scouts because of it? I think you and i agree that as a private organization they have the right to restrict membership. But as a participant, i would rather see BSA be inclusive.

Sounds to me like your friend would be better off not declaring himself gay. Does he wear a neon sign? I don't wear a sign declaring myself heterosexual. Frankly, I'm tired of these type issues, and if some group only wants for it's membership, old people AARP, women NOW or black people NAACP, they should have that freedom.

McCloud. Do you wear a wedding ring? While you may not realize it, you declare yourself to be straight frequently. People ask if you are married soon after they meet you. They ask if you have a girlfriend, etc.

Gay people have to lie or keep secrets to avoid revealing their sexual orientation. It is not a matter of announcing it. The challenge is in hiding it, and no one should have to.

These types of issues in general are part of a political agenda used by liberals to make hay. Liberals foster their political power using groups, blacks, gays, hispanics, women, etc. where they can point fingers and claim racism, sexism, ... Your crusade is music to the ears of D Durbin, who is able to avoid why we have over 23 million unemployed, record food stamp recipients, record welfare recipients, massive debt, etc.

sorry, Rocco. It seems that you are only being used as a pawn in a large conspiracy theory created by liberals to obfuscate other issues. Your opinions for the inclusion of your fellow man are without merit... or at least that is what exists in the head of McCloud. Apologies for you having to respond to a known bigot... probably better to just ignore this one.

People shouldn't have to form their own organization when one exists already. The BSA isn't effected one way or the other with gay members.

They can coexist, unless a member who is gay decides to make an issue about his gayness. What reason would a gay boy scout have to make the fact that he is gay an issue with the organization other than to draw attention to himself. Are there activities that the organization sponsors that pertain to sexuality?

Uh, Brian........forming their own organization was exactly what the Girl Scouts did!

To whom you are romantically attracted is a fundamental part of being human. Teens as well as adults ask these things of those with whom they associate. It is a part of getting to know anyone.

This puts scouts in a position of either keeping secrets or lying. Neither option is healthy for anyone.

One of the main doctrines of being Orthodox is believing that the Messiah has not yet come. If you believe Jesus was the messiah, then you don't believe in Judaism as a religion. Pretty simple. There are Jews for Jesus and things of that nature, but they have a different belief set.

As of right now, if you are openly and admittedly gay, the BSA has a problem with you, but not because it changes what they are about.

Do you hold all groups to the same standard? If so you are going to have to include these groups on your list of "ignorant and wrong" organizations which should not be allowed to use school facilities:

1. KKK, La Raza, NAACP, Reverend Wright's United Church of Christ, etc, etc, etc, etc, any group with a race in it's name. Too many to list.
2. Most universities since their admission policies engage in shameless racial discrimination.
3. The Federal Government and most State Governments because they engage in racial and gender based set-aside programs for government contracts, and especially the Feds since they force the States to engage in race based gerrymandering of voting districts.

I would be impressed if you were willing to make a stand against all these organizations with the same energy, vitriol, and sense of self-righteousness you are showing for the Boy Scouts.

The policy may be archaic, obviously that is your opinion. On the other hand, perhaps the organization would rather not have it's leaders openly exposing their gay sexuality to young boys. Not for me or you to decide. Of course, as a taxpayer I do not have a choice in paying the school district money that I earned if I disagree with their policies. Again, these types of issues are of little importance and are often used as vehicles to obtain political power. I for one am tired of how our leaders divide us into rich vs poor, black vs white, straight vs gay. man vs woman, ....

This becomes a bigger issue because people like McCloud assume that if a leader is gay, he will discuss it openly and at all times with those whom he is in charge of. If a leader does that, that is wrong no matter what his sexuality is.

Well, then; girls should also be able to join the Boy Scouts by that measure.

Vicki - In other countries the scouts are coed. In the BSA, girls can participate in the Venture program who are 13 and have completed the eighth grade, or age 14 through 20 years of age.

The thing is the "right avenue to pursue per the system that governs this nation" does not apply since this is a private organization. If it was a government agency, yes, this would be the way to go--but the BSA is a private organization.

It doesn't matter diddly-squat whether gays are the majority or not, the BSA organization is a private one. They are not controlled by the government, as ruled on by the US Supreme Court.

And actually, I think gays constitute less than 6 percent of the population, so do they have the right to dictate how the BSA operates? No, so they should leave the BSA alone.

You're missing the point Sophie....he isn't asking the government to change anything for the BSA.

Then encourage the schools to stop allowing meetings to be held on their premises. Then you can also deny churches the ability to use the schools since some students may be atheists.

BUT, just remember this--citizens of a community are often allowed access to use community facilities for meetings and other events. You and the park district would have to cease allowing various other groups from using those facilities also.

You're opening up a can of worms going in that direction. Just leave the BSA be, since what they are doing is not hurting anyone.

Amen.

...then girls should also be able to join the Boy Scouts.

Your leaving out the transsexuals, dominatrix and the bestiality models. They have rights just like any other taxpayer.

Apparently that flag stands for race and gender discrimination since the Federal Government openly discriminates based on race and gender. Are you upset about that?

agreed!

Discrimination is written directly into our laws. Do you have any sympathy for those who are systematically discriminated against by law? Will you allow that to continue?

This is all phony outrage. You are merely piling on the politically correct opponent of the day. If you had any intellectual integrity you would be more upset about codified discrimination than private discrimination. Discrimination with the power of law, backed by government does far more damage than any discrimination occurring in a private organization.

Ah, but why is the topic discrimination in the BSA and not discrimination written into our laws?

gary, you do know why preferential laws have been written into our codes, right? You don't need to be reminded about our history, even up to recent times, do you?

Why would you need my full name? What would you do with that information?

I believe everything I put here, and I don't throw around gratuitous insults. I am very comfortable with my intellectual integrity. In fact, one of the reasons I do this is that I hope someone can show me where I'm wrong. That would be a good day.

Well that's an ignorant comment--just because Gary doesn't post with his full name doesn't mean he or she lacks integrity.

well said. folks that would stereotype and display open bigotry usually stand behind false names so that they don't have to be held accountable for the things they say under 'free speech'. I believe in both free and open speech.

Rocco,
You're not alone . . . here's 340-some other NW suburban supporters! http://www.change.org/petitions/northwest-suburban-council-reject-the-boy-scouts-of-america-s-anti-gay-policy-3

"After 62,000+ signatures, both artists are reminded of the fact that their values should come first."

Let's get back to the gist of this article. Two performing artist groups have said that they will not perform at the scout jamboree because the Boy Scouts values differ from their own.

OK then. Let them back out. Find some musicians whose values are more in line with the Boy Scouts organization. There are many out there. Not everyone caters to the LGBTQZYX (it's a growing acronym. more special interests will be joining in the near future) community.

And do you know one big difference between liberals and conservatives? Conservatives have their values. If somebody else has different 'values', they don't force the other group to change.

Compare and contrast to liberals...if liberals don't agree with somebody else's values they insist that they're changed!

You mean conservative values like this, Dan?-

http://www.examiner.com/article/pedophile-gop-senate-candidate-arrested-indicted-on-113-counts

A lot of the comments on Patch regarding Homosexuals end up this way. Many people become upset because they feel it is an affront to them. They fail to realize that, whatever they believe, allowing homosexuals to have equal rights will never affect them. If against it for religious reasons, they can still get in to heaven. If against it because they find it gross, they don't have to participate in it. They don't want anyone to infringe on their rights or allowable activities but they keep arguing to hold others back.

This shouldn't be political in nature. Nothing that homosexuals are asking for, as far as equality is concerned, will change the lives of any of us in a negative way.

"I find it funny how members of the BSA (both past and present) seem to be in favor of the BSA changing their ways and those who have no affiliation with the BSA say it is their right to allow whoever they want because they are a "Private" organization."

Really? your impression is that all of the people affiliated with BSA are for gay scouts and all of those who haven't been involved are against?

I would disagree. It's usually the minority opinion that yells the loudest and gets the most attention. If you were correct, this would've been changed years and years ago.

well said, Ana! Sexuality should not be an issue, so why make it one. as someone who has a boy in the organization, I do hope they change to be more inclusive and focused upon creating better citizens and great men.

I will repeat again--the BSA is a private organization and does not have to abide by your ideals. If in the future they decide to do so, that's their right.

Why is it when someone disagrees with a progressive, that person is WRONG. WRONG, WRONG, but the liberal is right?

Sophie, what you are saying is that if you don't like something then you should just say oh well and live with it. That isn't how our country has ever worked. When people see something they don't agree with or like, they try and fix or change it. He is not forcing anyone to do anything. He is asking people who are like minded to tell the scouts how they feel. There is no coercion or underhandedness. Nothing would ever change unless people spoke out against it.

He could have 100 million people sign and the scouts wouldn't have to change a thing. What he is doing is normal and an accepted practice here in the US. Instead of saying "I disagree so I quit," he is standing for what he thinks is right. You don't have to agree...it's fine.

We understand it is a private organization and you already stated this, Sophie. You're repeating it again as if we don't know it. Did I not acknowledge a few responses ago exactly what you just repeated in your first line?

Sophie what are YOUR ideals, morals, and values? Can you give any reasons why they should not allow gay scouts or leaders, aside from saying just because.

separate but equal has a long tragic history based upon fear and ignorance.

That's beyond any issue you may have with homosexuals, that's just downright racist!

This is not a left wing/right wing issue. It has to do with a private organization being allowed, by law, to set their own guidelines. Yes, it is right for the BSA to allow anyone to be a member, but from a legal standpoint there's no law that says they have to.

I find your allegation that "rightwingers who want to continue to deny rights to gays, women, minorities, and everyone else who isn't just like them" very offensive. I recall Mitt Romney stating several times that the BSA should allow gay members, and I bet there are others who feel the same.

Your other comments against conservatives are also out-of-line, but then from what I have read in some of your previous posts against those who don't believe as you do--you attack then.

Sophie - This discussion has absolutely nothing to do with the law. That question has been settled and I AGREE with you that the BSA has the right to exclude people from becoming members. The question on the table is WHY. I asked earlier what are your reasons for excluding Gays. The answer just because I can is unacceptable. If you have a moral objection to Gays, I may not agree with you but will respect your opinion. One of the many points of the Boy Scouts is to respect other opinions and values. We are not all alike. But we can all participate in the scout program without having identical ideas. I have been a scout and a leader for many years. I believe that this policy is wrong and hurtful and does not represent the values of the scouting program. It is time for a change.

Hey Sophie, when the extreme right wing of the Republican party stops introducing bills to rape women with a foreign object, vote against the VAWA, try to make obtaining a divorce more difficult, sue to end the Voting rights act, enact Prop 8 in California, on and on, etc etc ad nauseam, I will quit alleging that they are anti woman, anti minority and anti gay. Until then, I stand by my words. They might offend you, but the actions of the right wing extremists are truly offensive.

Just another tool who the Democrats can sucker into for votes, passing laws like The Violence Against Woman Act. Catchy name, maybe next time they can pass the Law Against Poverty Act or The Anti Unemployment Act. Tool.

McCloud - Can you tell me a good reason to not allow Gay adults/parents from participating as leaders in BSA?

Steve,
The line between homosexuality and pedophilia is blurred. This travel site for the gay community has age of consent information for every state and country. (Click at your own risk. I'm already on every watch list, so I don't worry about that kind of stuff anymore.)

http://www.breakaway.cc/GayTravel/GayAgeofConsent.php

Why do traveling gays need to know so much about age of consent laws if there is no preference for under age partners? Also there are movements within the gay community to do away with age of consent laws.

The BSA used to have a big problem with molestation and one of the things they did to stop it was ban gays from being scout masters. If you mix gay men with young boys you better watch the situation very closely or you are going find yourself saying "How horrible. We never knew that was happening!".

There's one good reason.

Using that logic, the BSA should ban heterosexual female leaders and allow lesbians.

I cannot deny that the BSA has had issues of abuse in the past. They are working very hard to prevent future instances. There are new policies in place and training for leaders and youth to recognize and report any situation that effects the safety of the scouts.

"The line between homosexuality and pedophilia is blurred" is incorrect. As a matter of fact one of the biggest cases of pedophilia in recent times was committed by a heterosexual, Jerry Sandusky.

I don't have a pony in the race, nor could I have less interest in this issue. Frankly, if a group has reason to not want gay leaders influencing their membership they are entitled to not allow them. This would apply towards any group, should have the privilege to allow whom they wish as members, regardless of others who think differently. These type of issues are bread and butter liberal life blood, as they are all about grouping folks and pointing fingers.

Steve,
You asked for a good reason. I gave one. You can try to hide behind rhetorical tricks and political correctness, but I brought up a real issue that needs to be taken seriously.

All risks are statistical in nature, and the risks go way up if you mix gay men with young boys. Ignoring this will lead to disaster.

I am fully aware at how politically incorrect it is to do anything but sing the praises of the gay community at this time. Everyone wants to show how open minded they are by embracing gays, but it is actually closed minded to ignore the risks and put children in danger just so you can pat yourself on the back for being such an humanitarian.

Sandra....You hit that nail squarely on the head. This is not the 50's and it is not Mayberry....and thankfully...the CONservatives can't make it so. My only complaint is they are not dying off fast enough...LOL

Gary, You did give me a reason and you have a point saying that there "may" be an increase in the risk. But there is a risk with the current policy as well from heterosexuals and closeted gays. BSA is working very hard to reduce the risk by establishing new policies, guidelines and training. I see this as mitigating the potential risk increases.

Steve,
So you grant that there are legitimate concerns on this issue that don't involve low brow bigotry. Fair enough.

Does it bother anyone else that the country is more concerned about gay scout masters than we are about the fact that we are spending our children into financial slavery?

Gays, free contraception, race hustling, etc... while Rome burns.
We are all being played.

Gary, how on earth can you actually say that the line between homosexuality and pedophilia is blurred? What an ignorant statement. I hate to tell you, but there are plenty of heterosexual people who engage or try to engage in pedophilia. And the site you listed...how did you decide it was only to make sure people could pray on younger people? Sometimes laws in other countries vary and I would certainly like to know it if I were a young person traveling. They list the ages for heterosexual couples as well, so it's OK if you want to pick up a 14 year old boy, as long as you are an older woman?

What you are saying is that if you hear a man is openly gay, then he is probably a pedophile. Right? Or that the odds are better than 50%? The sex trade is happening everywhere and unfortunately many young women are prayed upon by your ever clean heterosexual adult males. Statements like the one you made are the reason that most men stay in the closet and live like they do.

No one is asking you to like gay people Gary, but at least try to pretend they are just people with the same flaws that heterosexual people have as well.

Gary, did you not look at this link from the same site?

http://www.breakaway.cc/AdultWorld/ChildProstitution.php

It's a lovely write up about the abhorrent nature of child prostitution.

So Mac, what's wrong with VAWA? Until now it's always gotten bipartisan support (since it's inception in 1994). What's the difference now as opposed to then? Oh yeah- the tea party.

Dan - There are women in the Boy Scout Program. Girls can participate in the Venture program who are 13 and have completed the eighth grade, or age 14 through 20 years of age. There will also be female leaders in attendance.

Wow, another Republican who lives in a non-reality based world. Amazing. You really need to come out of that bubble,. there is obviously not enough oxygen in there. VA Republicans proposed the transvaginal ultrasound bill, which thankfully was defeated, but would have required any woman seeking an abortion to be subjected to an invasion by an large plastic ultrasound wand. The VAWA just passed, watered down by Republicans, and still many voted against it. Shelby County Alabama is currently before the Supreme Court trying to overturn the Voting Rights Act, and Prop 8, overturning gay marriage, did pass in California. Do try reading a newspaper or watching something besides Fox, Sophie. You might even learn something. You do not have my sympathy, only my disdain for your self inflicted ignorance.

exactly right. The "war against women" propaganda campaign was a concerted effort between the administration and the media. I'm surprised they didn't ask Romney "when did you stop beating your wife?"

Yes, thankfully in VA they can snuff out a life with the greatest of ease.

Then they should found the Gay Scouts of America; what's stopping them.....?

Just saying, why is it that people on the left always have to resort to name-calling when they can't prove their point?

I don't have a problem with the boy scouts or any other private club allowing membership to any group, but it is entirely up to the club who they allow to join. All this talk that it is a rightwing group suppressing gays is incorrect. How do you know that everyone in charge of the scouts is a conservative and against them having gay scouts? One member of the board (who was on a Pres G W Bush commission) is working with another member of the board to change the policy. Mitt Romney also said the scouts should admit gays as members.

So all the nasty comments about the right and Republicans, etc., is baloney. Maybe the obstacles are from people on the left.

Goober told me that he found your toothbrush you left behind at Gomer's place. Gomer told him Shazaam, Just Sayin wasn't say'n much the other night.

Poor Abigail, misses the point again. I don't think anyone is talking about right wing groups here. This guy puts up a petition, which you can either sign or ignore, but then right wing extremists like McCloud and Gary come here and start posting about bestiality and pedophilia. The point is, "people" like them, and you, just can't help yourselves. Your hatred and fear is palpable. And the rest of us feel the need to point out your wrongheadedness. As for calling names, pretty sure the right can hold their own with that. I know for a fact that YOU can.

Sandra like to push the agenda using words like extremist, bigot, racist, sexist. She learns well from the straight jacket crew at MSNBC.

Just Lyin', you seems rather 'out of sorts' yourself because many of us will not silently stand by while your ilk attempts to force decisions on us that we don't agree with. I have also noticed that people that think that they are smarter and better than everyone else generally aren't; an $80K+ piece of paper doesn't buy intelligence or common sense, and anyone can get an education for free at their local library.

McClown...It's well known that Goober will say anything that comes into his pea sized brain in the heat of passion. Kinda like you.

Sicky...How you are mistaken! I am not out of sorts at all. In fact, I am as happy as a lark! I know it must be hard to remain silent when you and your "ilk" are circling the drain. So wail to your hearts delight. The more you wail the happier I get. And as far as anyone getting a free education at a local library, you my dear, ought to give that a try. Seems nothing else has worked for you to date.

McCloud, folks use words like bigot with you because you have openly shown it with your comments and statements about different religions, women and gays.. If you need help looking it up because you don't understand, let me know.

Abigail...I have to LOL at that comment. Historically, you have been one of the most hate filled posters on The Patch. You may think you can pull the wool over some peoples eyes...but nasty name calling is your personal signature. BTW...who died and gave you the majority voice? No one...it's just that little voice in your head telling you that you are right about everything. Talk about crap!

Abigail...Great to learn you are done with me! Therefore...I look forward to you never referencing my screen name or comments ever again. You could not have made me happier. Go away...bye bye... ( good riddance )

LOL. Thanks!!

Sicky...I am officially taking a page from Abigail's playbook. You are just far too stupid to have any kind of exchange with...so...I am done with you. Go away...bye bye and
GOOD RIDDANCE.